Mina the Hollower is finally out. After six years in the oven over at Yacht Club Games, it's clear the wait was worth it, with rave reviews across the board—including our own.
To celebrate a monumental occasion for the creators of Shovel Knight, I had the opportunity to sit down for a conversation with Sean Velasco, founder of Yacht Club Games. We discussed a lot of interesting topics regarding Mina the Hollower, like the incredibly affordable pricing, the design choices that went into crafting its world, and even what's next for the company.
If you prefer it in video format, you can check out the full video interview at the bottom of the article. In any case, I hope you enjoy!
StealthOptional: First of all, Sean, how are you?
Sean Velasco: I'm doing real good right now. Our review embargo just dropped, and so all our reviews have been coming out. We're at a 93 [on Metacritic] right now. We're the highest-rated game of the year right now!
SO: I personally reviewed it; I gave it a 9 out of 10. It's easily my game of the year, so congratulations! I know the team is feeling very, very happy because their reviews are super high. Was there a threshold the team was trying to achieve? Was there like a special number, or do you not care about the specific metrics?
SV: Well, we're betting it all on Mina, right? As an indie dev studio, every single game you make pretty much finances the next one. So depending on how well Mina does, that really shows how much security we have for the next round, right? We still got plenty more ideas and stuff in the pipe, and games that are in the midst of development.
As far as numbers go, what I told Jason Schreier at Bloomberg a few months ago was if we sold 50,000, that would be bad. We'd probably have to go try and find a publisher or something. If we sold a couple hundred thousand, then we're probably good, and if we sell more than that, then we're starting to become more comfortable. If we sell a million, then that's awesome. I'd love to sell a million soon and two million someday.
SO: Talk to me about pricing. Because you said in that interview it was like make or break, but it's priced at $20, so it's surprisingly affordable. Of course, we live in a post-Silksong world, right? Were there ever internal discussions of, you know, "this game is too big for just $20?"
SV: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you were saying we're in a post-Silksong world. I think Silksong really showed the way. There was another very notable $20 indie game that is slipping my mind right now that also came out for $20, and it was like, "whoa, this is such a deal." We also come from the times of free-to-play games and iPhone games, ad-supported games—games that people begin to associate with bad quality, right? Like, the price of a game could be like anything.
So we definitely were worried about charging too little for it, or about charging too much for it. We eventually decided on this price because we thought this was the one that would make the biggest splash. We didn't want anyone to see the price and want to wait. We thought that as long as we could get good word of mouth and good reviews, then the $20 price point will be totally okay.
SO: You know how kids these days like to call stuff like slop—like "nostalgia slop." "Oh, Mina the Hollower looks like nostalgia slop. Just $20? What would I get out of it?" If you had to give an elevator pitch to someone who's a bit wary of trying Mina the Hollower, what would you describe the game as?
SV: I don't think the game really needs to rely on the nostalgia at all. That's what I love about making retro games is that we use the limitations of the platform just to try and make something fun.
Mina the Hollower is an enormous, open action-adventure game that you could really play any way that you want. We crafted it over the course of six years to be something that you can pick up and play and learn easily, but something that also has a challenging difficulty curve that will continue to challenge you throughout the course of the game.
We trust you so much as a player to make whatever decisions that you want—to pay attention, to enjoy yourself—and we give you the tools to be able to complete the game as well. I'd say no matter what kind of player you are, if there's any twinge of it that would interest you: exploring a big, dense world full of creepy, weird stuff and intricate level design, doing fierce-looking combat, having kind of like levity and charm and fun, having a large variety of items that you could use all in conjunction with one another, and just like playing it your own way... There's so much to enjoy with Mina the Hollower that the nostalgia bait isn't even in the top of what I would say.
What I would hope is that maybe you would play Mina and then after that, say, "Oh, maybe I'll go give Oracle of Seasons or Oracle of Ages a try."
SO: Speaking of limitations, was there something that was too challenging? Something that made you go, "Why don't we break away a little from our self-imposed limitations to make this work?"
SV: That's a good question. I'll give you one concrete example: the number of buttons that we're using on the controller. Shovel Knight is, well, it's a three-button game; it could be a two-button game. It could be jump and attack, and then you press up and attack to throw your relic. Later, we added the ability to use triangle for an additional button, so it became a three-button game.
You could also use the L and R to swap your left and right to do a quick select. That was like an additional function. But if you wanted to just play it like on a Nintendo controller, you could.
With Mina, it's a four-button game. You have jump, attack, vile, and use relic. There's [also] a swap button that you can use on your buster [Battery Buster, one of the main five weapons] where you could swap between the modes, and you can also duck when you're not swapping. Then there's also a left and right switch, right? Meaning that Mina and these buttons grew. In fact, the swap button got added like almost near the end of development.
We were having trouble putting so many functions because there's so much you can do that we just had to relent and add that swap in there. So there's one example, but we really try to stick to our guns, though.
SO: How does the team come up with ideas to populate the world outside the main quest? I want to give you an example. I don't want to be too spoilery because I don't want to ruin the experience for people, but the whole ladder thing with the shopkeeper in the Bayou. There's also the shopkeepers who feel so alive, eerie, and creepy. They hide a lot of secrets—big secrets.
SV: We definitely got all sorts of different inspirations from a lot of different places. Sometimes we would have a thematic idea; usually, it's like, "We need a shopkeeper to be in this area." Because it's a bayou area, it needs to be a bayou-related shopkeeper. And we'll think about it like that.
We did a Kickstarter to make this game, and we had some "directors for a day." The ladder was actually made by a director for a day that knew us. They were next to us in a booth at a festival that we were both at. We borrowed their ladder from them, and when they came back to try and reclaim it, whoever had borrowed it didn't realize that it was their ladder. They're like, "Hey, what are you doing? Why are you taking our ladder?" We had an argument about it. So these people, they worked with us to add this character to the game, where you take their ladder from them and you go back and forth. So it's actually based on a true story in that case! It's amazing.
We've been doing a series called Yacht Club Games Explains,; where we've been explaining where we get our ideas or how we go through our process. You'll see that we looked at Victorian literature and Victorian stories for this game, and personal anecdotes from members of the team, or just like weird ideas that we wanted to explore that were based on a horrific idea. Because the game is supposed to be like a horror game, we also based a lot of the characters on a specific fear or on a specific horror idea that might affect you.
SO: What was the big thing that was missing from Mina that made you delay it from a perfect Halloween release date to now?
SV: It was good; it just wasn't finished. It wasn't put together to the point where it was polished to where it needed to be. We didn't wanna put it out unless it was really, really ready.
We made that very difficult decision to delay it, and it ended up being a six-month delay, which was a little bit longer than I was imagining, but I do think it was worth it for the final product at the end. It was a very long process.
SO: I want to talk about combat. I saw in an interview that you play fighting games. I love them, and it's funny because in my review, I described the combat as playing "footsies." Was that something that was on your mind while developing the combat? And what do you think players who have accustomed themselves to just parrying and dodging will feel about it?
SV: That's something that we were concerned about as we made this game—is that we didn't have a perfect in-time dodge or parry mechanic that you could just use to get out of the way immediately.
Instead, it's a game where you have to do, as my friend Ian [Flood, gameplay programmer at Yacht Club] and I say, you gotta play honest neutral with the enemies. That's like the fun of it, though. We did give you a weapon—at least the default weapon—that has a very long and deliberate attack. We give you the tools to be able to work within those constraints.
There is frustration and annoyance built into fighting and combat. It's like, sometimes you get hit, and sometimes you messed up the timing; that happens. But I think we didn't shy away from creating combat that was challenging in a truly challenging way. Instead of trying to give you an instantaneous thing, we tried to work within those constraints of the spacing to make something that felt fair and good.
I'm happy that it seems that the combat is being well-received because we did put a lot of time into making sure the spacing works. Hopefully, that'll also show positional-based combat is cool in addition to parry. You don't need to have a parry in your game. Although we do have a parry in the game if you want.
SO: Sean, I know you're the perfect person to ask this. What can you tell us about the next Smash? And is Mina going to be in it?
SV: I have no idea! What would they even do with the next Smash, right? It can't be "everyone's here again." It's got to be... What do you even do? If they asked us, I'm sure we'd say yes immediately.
SO: How happy was the team with getting Shovel Knight back in Ultimate?
SV: It was totally insane. We were flying high off of Shovel Knight being a success on the 3DS and Wii U. Just to be included with Nintendo's beloved brand just felt so... It just felt so good just to be a part of it.
SO: On the topic of Shovel Knight, do you think Mina can achieve that status of being seen as a mascot like Sonic was to SEGA or Mario to Nintendo?
SV: I mean, I don't know. That's not for me to decide (laughs). But you know what? We did our best to make a game that hopefully honors everyone that we're taking inspiration from. We love Nintendo. We are game developers because we want to make Nintendo-style games. We just hope that everyone enjoys them.
SO: Couple of final questions, and moving back to what you mentioned about player freedom. Did you ever feel like it was too much? A lot of new games, and even some older ones, felt too hand-holdy. Mina reminds me of the original Zelda: "Here's a sword, or a hammer, whatever you want, now go out there."
SV: That's something that we grappled with throughout the entire game. How much do we want to lead the player? How much do we want to tell them where to go? And what are they able to fall back on if they're lost? We took a light hand to it. We have more than Zelda 1 in terms of teaching, showing people where to go. There are NPCs that you can talk to. You can look at the fountain. We hope that the layout of the world is such that you'll at least be able to go in those main directions.
I'm happy with the level of exploratory-ness that's in the game; I think it's good. We trust you as the player to go through it all. We thought about it. Should you be able to go to the psychic or whatever, and you pay them, and they just tell you like, "Hey, here's where you should go next"? But we decided not to do that. I stand by that decision.
SO: There's not even a proper map. Well, there is one, but it's not something key to the discovery of the game; it's more for completion's sake.
SV: Yeah, we give you the tools to be able to find 100% as well. I did it myself a dozen times, so we made sure that it was doable.
SO: Not really a question, but on that topic, I want to commend you on the accessibility options that are in the game. I am a very stubborn person. I didn't use them because I want to experience the game and I want to be challenged, but it's great that they're in there. So, congratulations on that.
SV: I totally agree. I have a six-year-old nephew that I love playing this game with and watching him play it. He turns the modifiers on and tweaks it in a way that makes it enjoyable for him.
That gives me such gratification because back in the Shovel Knight days, Shovel Knight 1 doesn't... I mean, there are a lot of cheat codes, but the way that they're implemented in Mina is such that I feel like you could get an experience that's even closer to the intended experience—almost like training wheels if you're a young person.
If you want to be challenged more, then you can do that as well. And there are also some things—like, for instance, if I had my druthers, I would have put damage numbers rising from all the characters, because I like having that information available to me. But that's a modifier you can turn on just to see the information. I got overridden because people didn't want numbers all over the screen. I get it, I get it! But it's an option that you can turn on.
SO: Speaking of which, how hard was it to program the modifier that changes color palettes every time Mina jumps?
SV: I mean, I didn't program it, but since we had the ability to choose it, I would imagine that it was actually pretty easy.
SO: My final question: last year, you revealed a 3D logo. With such clues, one can imagine what's coming next from the developer. What can you tell us about the project or projects?
SV: Right now, we're all full steam ahead on Mina. Even those of us that were working on the 3D project have moved over onto Mina now and are doing things like making Steam trading cards and answering emails because we're, like, all hands on deck doing Mina stuff.
So once that all settles and we've had a chance to relax for a moment, then we're going to come back. And yeah, we have a 3D game that is more than halfway done. It's not quite ready to reveal, but it's going to be real cool.
Then we also have Shovel Knight DX, which we announced. Are we going to finish that? Are we ever going to do that? It's, like, mostly done, but there are some big questions that we've got to answer if we actually want to put it out. I want players to be able to play the old Shovel Knight games. You can't really get Shovel Knight on PS5 easily right now, or it's not available in the way [we want it to be].
We want to have a refresh. Shovel Knight is 10 years old at this point. We want it to be available. We're only at 14 people, so how will we best do it? I'm not sure.
Another question I've been asked lately is: "What if people love Mina so much?" Now people are going to want Mina. You have another project lined up. "What are you going to do with Mina? Are you going to drop everything and go with Mina?" And I said, "You know, I don't know." Never say never. I guess I don't know. It's up to us, truly. So we're just going to have to regroup and figure out what's next.
And that's it. Stick with us at StealthOptional.com: your go-to source for all things Mina the Hollower.